Aboriginal Rights

» bossel - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

It would be nice if you could provide some sources for your ideas.

"Did you know that Indians invented asphalt? True! Suprised?"
Yes, surprised. AFAIK, there was no need to invent asphalt as it occurs naturally & the (historically established) 1st ones to use it were Mesopotamians & Egyptians some 5000 years ago.

"Did you know that the Mayan Indian people taught the world the concept of 'zero'? True!"
True? Maybe you mistake Maya to be Indians from India? History tells us that they introduced zero as a number to the Old World. Even if the Olmecs (not the Maya) used a similar entity earlier than the Indians (which is possible though improbable) they didn't teach it to "the" world.

"the oldest published book on the planet is a Hopi Indian book entitled 'Popov'? It's true! Surprised?"
Yes, surprised. Never heard of that. Any evidence? The oldest book I heard of is of Etruscan origin & should be at least 2400 years old (IIRC, there was also a claim that some Egyptian papyrus was the oldest). Considering the fact that Hopi ancestors were still nomadic around 750 AD, I have serious doubts about your claim.

-- posted by bossel

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» woorama - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

In response to "Some home truths about Native Americans" posted by bossel:

google the author, john two-hawks - he's got a site and i'm sure he can refer you to his sources.

i do recall reading about asphalt being used tens of thousands of years ago for paths by native americans however, predating others. however, i can't remember where i read that, so you'd be better off asking johnny.

thanks for questioning these things - i think that's really important.

the worst thing people can do is treat aboriginal cultures like delicate little special entities - our cultures are as valid as anybody else's, and as such demand critiquing.

so, yeah, thanks again, and please continue to post - keep us on our toes!

-- posted by woorama

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» woorama - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

In response to "Some home truths about Native Americans" posted by woorama:

there is a new john two-hawks article up now - indian etiquette and offense.

i like his writing. the right wing and the anti-indigenous lobby are never constrained by the need to reference or provide proof for their constant littany of anti-aboriginal propaganda - so i think we need writers like mr 2-hawks on our side who do the same. or else we could never hope to maintain any kind of voice in opposition.

"historically established" whose history? that's western history.

mr 2hawks' articles may be subjective, but isn't that needed for just a little balance?

i often find aboriginal thinkers are hindered by rules their right wing counterparts are not constrained by. this is because mainstream people get to say things like "the truth", which assumes that history is some empirical reality with only one version - the anglo-centred version.

the rest of us are hindered by the knowledge that history is constantly shifting, in motion due to the new stories and hidden secrets that are constantly coming to light.

references are not proof - the fact that someone has said something before you is not some divine measure of truth. to wit, this site is not an academic one (thankfully).

rather, as it says in the welcome message, this is a place where aboriginal people can define their own realities and identities, as free as possible from the western constructs that constantly seek to define us. one of these western constructs is academia, which i constantly seek to avoid. thus, our writings here are necessarily subjective, and represent our viewpoint and self-image - us looking out at the world, rather than the world looking in at us, which is what you find in the usual western sociological, anthropological and political texts that to date have defined our identity in the western world.

-- posted by woorama

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» bossel - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

In response to "Some home truths about Native Americans" posted by woorama:

"he worst thing people can do is treat aboriginal cultures like delicate little special entities"
Sorry, but I don't even understand the concept of "aboriginal" cultures. Aboriginal is probably used in the meaning of indigenous, but then pretty much every culture is aboriginal. Anyway, you could say that I tend to treat every culture with equal disdain. Some (like the Chinese or Meso-American pre-Columbian cultures) are more interesting, others are less.

""historically established" whose history? that's western history."
Western? Whose west? The Earth is a globe. ;-)

I wasn't referring to politicised history, but to history as a science. OK, you could say that this science is of European (if that is what you mean by "western") origin, but that falls short of the truth.

Science as such should be (although scientists often aren't) culturally indepedent. Therefore, there is no balance in science, if scientists were to review their activities for sensitivities of some parts of society (or mankind, if you like) it wouldn't be science anymore.

"history is some empirical reality with only one version"
If you understand history as such, you are slightly mistaken. History as a science has many sides to it & although there is only one truth in what really happened, historians are usually very well aware that this truth is hardly ever to reach. Mostly, all you can achieve is a model of former reality. How close this model is to the truth depends on the validity (quality & quantity) of sources.

You should not mistake what you read in newspapers or learn at school for history as a science.

Well, since as you said, you want to avoid such "western constructs" like "academia", I suppose, continuing this discussion would be pretty useless. For, I tend to rely heavily on science in my argumentation.

John Two-Hawks is according to his own bio an "internationally acclaimed recording artist", but not much of a historian as it seems.

Sorry to have jumped in here, but obviously we approach history from totally different directions & any further discussion of history would be futile.

-- posted by bossel

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» woorama - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

In response to "Some home truths about Native Americans" posted by bossel:

on the contrary, i believe discussion between our points of view is essential. such dialogue is at the centre of genuine meaningful reconciliation between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples.

remember the renaissance in europe was only very recent, as was the "western" discovery that the world was round. our ancient oral astronomical texts reveal that my people already knew this tens of thousands of years ago.

indigenous science has been going for much longer than the recent european construct of it.

our history has too, although from your standpoint it is known as "prehistory", as it doesn't really count as "real" history in the youthfully exuberant anglo-centred worldview.

so as you can see, at a very fundamental level, reconciliation (ending the genocide and starting the understanding) is absolutely dependant upon thinkers like you and i continuing dialogue (in the spirit of increasing the scope of both of our worldviews).

i hope you are keen to continue. i don't often get challenged on this site - although i'm really asking for it. sometimes i write outrageous stuff just to see if somebody out there will challenge me on it.

so please don't go away! i need you to find where my edges are at!

you should check out my romatic invaders pieces in the archived section of my articles. i say some absolutely outrageous things there that are screaming for a critique.

please feel free to jump in - the water's fine. and you are welcome at this fire.

(go on - that was a mixed metaphor! don't let that slide!)

-- posted by woorama

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» woorama - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

In response to "Some home truths about Native Americans" posted by woorama:

hi bossel

i realise you'll probably never read this, but i just heard that pluto has been axed as a planet and i thought of you.

all history, all science is such a changeable, dynamic thing. definitions (such as "planet") change all the time.

but bossel, tell me you don't see that emu in the milky way, chasing that egg! that's one thing that truly is eternal.

there now, there's some hope that some kind of objective reality is possible (although only from a subjective viewpoint!)

-- posted by woorama

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» maybe29 - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

In response to "Some home truths about Native Americans" posted by woorama:

Require referencing. The difficulty is in designation that are applied to a group of people upon other people.

Regarding the discussion on "zero". The conception of zero occurred simultaneously and independently in India and in the Americas. True. Maya developed mathematics and writing completely on their own; nobody from Europe or Asia influenced them in the slightest.

Hindu's also introduced the decimal point.

The problem is that the concept of zero was not useful till a Vatican priest who had difficulty getting his bookkeeping straight. Trade and investments were occurring, but how to keep track of your investment or loss. Sorry, forgot the priest' name. Some priest were well educated third sons of the nobility, especially those involved in money, he might have read an explorer's journal and came across a reference to the mayan zero. Hey, Mayan zero could be a negative. Making a long story short, thus modern bookkeeping was born.

-- posted by maybe29

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» woorama - "Some home truths about Native Americans"

In response to "Some home truths about Native Americans" posted by maybe29:

thanks for that - some good info. not only is referencing required in this dodgy area of claiming aspects of history and technology, but also some kind of rationale for ownership of knowledge. hard for indigenous people to claim any of this in these kinds of discourses, as traditionally we think of knowledge in different ways - not as a commodity or ipr thing. here's where debate breaks up, and instead we must attempt to understand multiple worldviews and honor each subjective viewpoint. but who am i kidding? writing here, in this language, the western viewpoint is dominant and everything else is "other"!

-- posted by woorama

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